By Will Hess

I have served in church leadership and pastorship for over a decade now and I have noticed a continual theme: pastors are quitting. I am not talking about those who have been involved in some form of infidelity (because I’ve seen that as well) but I am referring to good, honest, God-fearing pastoral families who are leaving ministry in droves. As someone who has also stepped down from full-time pastoral ministry – I have regularly found myself wondering why this was the case. Many people I knew who had stepped down from ministry were people of whom I had great respect for, personable, loved God, loved people, and were over all fantastic people that would be the benefit of any Christian fellowship. After talking to many of these individuals, I can honestly say, the reason we are losing good pastors is because of bad environments. We have a deeply sick disease at the root of our Western churches and the problem is only getting worse – not better.

Let me explain, for years all I wanted to be was a minister of the Word of God. Serving others, teaching others, and lifting up the Body of Christ. However, once I joined ministry, I experienced so many problems that it is hard to even know where to begin. I had to be a whistle blower on sexual abuse allegations while the lead pastor attempted to cover it up, I also experienced the nastiest forms of church politics, manipulation amongst the people, and saw people striving for power grabs and authority. While this was happening, most people were quick to critique, make accusations, and complain, but even fewer were willing to serve, assist, and build up. I experienced nasty division while my wife’s mother was passing away, and again when we lost two of our pregnancies. Yet, we pressed on. My wife and I continued to serve, but once she got pregnant for the third time, I knew it was time for a change. For the health of my wife and the health of my child.

This was one of the hardest decisions I had ever made because, truthfully, ministry was my life and dream. It is what I always wanted to do, but I also knew that this environment was not healthy for a family. I remember being puzzled, as it was nothing like what I thought ministry would be, and to this day, I do not believe it is what ministry should be. We sell ministry as a job that is focused on the Word of God and serving others for the sake of Christ. The reality is vastly different than the pitch and I think this causes pastors to reconsider their careers. Over the years I have contemplated the issues that ministry families face and thought I would document them here. This will be a different article than what we typically promote here. This one will not be biblically exegetical, nor will it attempt to be academic. This post I am hoping will help non-ministry families realize what their pastors are truly facing, help ministers articulate some of their own thoughts, and perhaps be something that can help steer our churches in the right direction.

NUMBERS DON’T LIE

All someone has to do is take a cursory view of statistics regarding pastors and it’s easy to see that our pastors are not okay. Currently 38% of pastors have considered leaving ministry this past year alone. I also know the vast majority of those who enter pastoral ministry, will not retire as ministers – meaning most of them quit along the way. The statistics are alarming and prove the mental health of our ministers are not in a good place. Frequently stating they are stressed, have no close friends, they were under-prepared at seminary, work absurd hours, and so much more – it’s no wonder 1,500 pastors leave the ministry every month. So why is that? In no particular order I will give various reasons I think ministry is not a viable field for many ministers.

ABSURD EXPECTATIONS

Pastors are often faced with expectations that are impossible for any one man to perform. My personal experience of this still has me laughing from time to time. In my second pastorate I was expected to be the lead pastor, preach three or more times a week, lead the youth group, lead praise and worship, lead a few bible studies, handle upkeep of over 5 acres of land, council people’s marriages, assist with financials, disciple various individuals, put together various curriculum, keep track of all church supplies, help in two remodeling projects at the church at a moment’s notice (and if I was unable to help whenever this gentleman chose to work on his project – I would be accused of being a lazy millennial), and many more. All this while placed in a tiny one-bedroom apartment making poverty level income. Eventually, once the old pastor moved, I moved into the parsonage which we found to be infested with hundreds of bats and falling apart. Apparently, the old administration knew of the infestation, they just didn’t do anything about it. Things spiraled even more out of control as we had to handle 3AM phone calls to help a hurting family, had to deal with sexual abuse within the youth group, substance abuse, and so much more.

Remember, this is just scraping the surface of my particular story and I have actually heard far worse stories than my own. No singular person can be expected to spearhead all these issues at once. Plus, each of these issues typically involves wildly different skill sets. Pastors shouldn’t be expected to be project managers, accountants, counselors, theologians, orators, and anything else you need him to be. A pastor is a man same as you and he has a particular skill set. Typically, that skill set involves counseling, preaching, teaching, and theology. Even amongst pastors, those categories range in strength. Some are better at preaching than they are systematically teaching. Some pastors are horrible speakers but wonderful counselors. A church should never expect their pastor to be the “one man with all the hats”. If a pastor is able to fill other roles and he wants to, that’s awesome! But it should hardly be the expectation.

In fact, I am aware of many churches who won’t hire a pastor unless he is able to play an instrument, sing, or lead worship. Which is frankly unacceptable, we are pastors, not entertainers. If you want a concert, go buy a ticket. If you want builders and architects, go hire one. If you want a CEO, get a job, and go work for a multi-billion-dollar corporation. These are not the roles of a pastor and many people have it entirely backwards. If your pastor is willing and able to do those tasks – great! But that’s not his job. According to Scripture, if a pastor meets the qualifications, he is to be a minister of the Word of God to the flock. That’s it. It’s not an easy job either, but it is what pastors are called to be. 

All this to say, pastors often are buried under unrealistic expectations. They clock in 55-75 hours a week and often don’t get a full day off to be with their family. In fact, those unrealistic expectations often are extended to the family as well. The pastor’s family isn’t to just be present within the ministry, but to be at the beck and call of everyone in the church. This often means pastor’s wives aren’t even able to plan their day with their families without the potential of it being entirely ruined or interrupted. After all, if you don’t live up to the expectations of people, the people will get upset, which will lead to more meetings, angry phone calls, and people leaving the church. One thing ministry taught me was how incredibly immature and fickle people can truly be. Wal-Mart Karens got nothing on Christian Karens and when the customers get upset – it will be hell to pay. (Pun intended)

THE KARENS STRIKE BACK

What most people end up saying here is, “well, if they don’t like the pastor, they can leave!” Which is true, but for pastors this isn’t so simple. If someone leaves the church, it is rarely peaceful. The person who leaves a fellowship often feels they have to validate their decision to leave, so they gossip behind the pastor’s back for months, find anything they can to twist and distort to make the pastor/church appear inadequate, defame his ministry tactics or capabilities, and once all the seeds of dissension have been properly planted and nourished – they will leave. Upon leaving, they will attempt to take as many with them as possible, this is often what is at the root of a church split. Typically, this means when someone leaves, it causes the pastor even more havoc as he is continually inculcated with demands for an explanation as to these people’s exodus and is forced into correcting the record of falsehoods, lies, gossip, and slander. I cannot tell you the number of backwards stories I have heard go through the rumor mill and come out the other side nearly unrecognizable.

Honestly, this is why whenever negative press comes out on any pastor, I am always apprehensive. I know many pastors who have been horrible and abuse their positions, but I also know even more great pastors whose names have been dragged through the mud over disgruntled members. This can get even more difficult for a pastor as sometimes they are privy to information that could save them from the persecution, but often it would mean exposing someone else’s grave sin in order to do so. Thus, many pastors will just take the beating, convinced they’re being a good martyr.  On the flip side, many abusive pastors know this, and will continually claim, “there’s more to it than that, but I am not at liberty to discuss this.” They use this tactic to pull the wool over people’s eyes. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Due to the complexity of perception, pastors often feel stuck between a rock and a hard place when disgruntled members go on the offensive. Either tell everyone the issue and risk gossiping yourself or come off like a potential abuser who withholds information. It’s a nasty spot to be in.

It’s also worth noting that when this occurs, pastors are forced to spend hours of their weeks stomping out unnecessary fires, all because some random member in the church chose to cause division in their disagreement and instead of leaving peacefully or striving for unity, they attempt one more political stunt to bring havoc onto the church and the pastor.

When those aforementioned unrealistic expectations are not met, busybodies get to work, and cause a pastor a lot of grief. If he’s lucky, the busybody will leave, along with their ilk. If he’s not lucky he could lose his job, livelihood, and home. Remember, for the congregation the church is just the building in which they fellowship. For the pastor, it is often his lifeblood. I have known pastors who have lost their jobs and home due to someone successfully turning a congregation on a pastor. In the end, these people are often too willing to sacrifice the pastor and his family on the altar of their own petty agenda.

This also means that every disgruntled member can become a serious financial threat to the church and the pastor’s family. Consider that if people leave so does their tithe. This means pastors are often faced with a choice of bending the knee to the demands of a mob or standing on their own principles and risk losing funding. Personally, I took a stand for what was biblical, consistent, and true, and this forced me to get a job to sustain myself as a minister – that way I could focus on ministry without financial pressure (one of the best decisions I ever made). However, this isn’t true for all pastors. Some pastors choose to either comply with the increasing demands of the people, or just shape the church’s culture to be as seeker friendly and milquetoast as possible. It’s no wonder so many pastors step down or lose all backbone. They’re people after all, just like you and me, and to continually fight can be exhausting.

Obviously, I do not think this is good. Pastors should have strong backbones and biblical principles and churches should support that. Congregants would do well to not making mountains out of mole hills. Your pastor isn’t perfect, and neither are you – there will be disagreements. This is why God calls us to humility. One of the marks of a truly healthy church is when people can disagree with each other without splitting the place asunder. Pastors, I’d also encourage you to be loving, gracious, and kind at all times, but if someone is causing division – follow Matthew 18:15-20 as fast as possible. Protect your flock and mark those that cause division.

Christian Karens aside, the primary reason pastors don’t want people to leave is because they want to see lives changed for God. Every person that leaves can often feel like a personal failure (and maybe it is) and thus pastors will usually fight to keep people rather than cast them out. Remember, pastors are shepherds, and they want to lead sheep and protect the church from wolves. It can be difficult for a pastor to come to terms that someone within his flock has been a wolf this whole time and it is better they depart than for them to stay.  Thus, he will often work hard to meet with the person, attempt to flesh out any obstacles between them, and try to bring reconciliation. This is because pastors want to see lives changed by Christ and unity to thrive amongst the brethren, it’s typically the driving force behind their call to ministry. (Because it certainly isn’t the money).

In short: church politics suck.

THE POVERTY GOSPEL

All this can leave great pastors emotionally and mentally strained. However, this merely brings us to discuss the financial issues pastors are faced with. Most pastors make precious little money. Most pastors (myself included) make poverty level salaries. Which gets increasingly absurd since churches often expect their pastors to have lofty seminary degrees while paying pennies to the metaphorical dollar. This creates a major imbalance for pastors as they are usually trying to pay off school debt while making barely any money. In all actuality, many pastors I know have had to go on government assistance just to make ends meet.

This gets even worse when it comes to dealing with upset people in the church. Every single person that leaves is also dollars leaving. Should pastors necessarily think this way? Probably not, but it doesn’t change the reality that people leaving the church means funding leaving the church. In other words, every single person that leaves could very well impact a pastor’s ability to put food on their table for their family. Most pastors I know will always choose to do the right thing, despite the financial pressures, but then we wonder why good pastors eventually quit? Probably because they don’t want their income and family’s well-being dependent or controlled by a fickle group of people who aren’t afraid to turn on you in a moment if they don’t get their way. Which is asinine since a church ought to be the hands and feet of Christ, meanwhile pastors often feel alone despite being surrounded by people (but more on that later).  It gets even worse when people actually threaten to leave and take their tithe with them (yes, this has happened to me. No, I did not acquiesce to the man’s request after that stunt).

Even more egregious is pastors are told, “this is the way it’s supposed to be. You shouldn’t be in it for the money! Was Jesus wealthy? Was Paul rich?” Yes, people will shame you just for desiring a living wage. Ironically, I was told this sort of thing continually from a person who was on the hiring committee at my second pastorate who made well over six figures a year.  Meanwhile this same individual would regularly be upset my wife and I didn’t continually host people at our house for dinner – despite them paying their last pastor twice as much. However, we could barely afford our own food, let alone paying multiple families. He chocked up my pay shortage to “a lack of experience” (I was fresh out of seminary but notice the corporate mindset already. Experience = more pay). I was young and naïve at the time, I shouldn’t have agreed to the salary in the first place, but I was sold on the poverty gospel. That I was to be a willing servant of the Lord no matter how little I made or how much it cost. After all, you can’t put a dollar amount on a soul! I still cringe at my naivety at the time.

Now, not all churches can afford to pay their pastor a living wage and keep the lights on. Most pastors understand that and are willing to endure for a while. That’s fine and even admirable. However, I would suggest that if a church is going to have multiple paid staff, their first goal ought always to be to get their pastor a full-time living wage. Take care of your Jerusalem before you worry about the uttermost. So often churches get financially bogged down by trying to get a better production, fancier programs, or perhaps they desire the noble goal of getting involved in missions. Although missions is great work, if the church can’t yet support their pastor on a full-time living wage, then they really shouldn’t be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars a year on missions where pastors are trying to get a full-time living wage. It’s putting the chariot before the horse. Consider, if your pastor is financially stable, he will be in a healthier state of mind and thereby become more effective in his position. Likely this will help create a healthy church which will grow and allow more financial latitude in order to support even more missions, non-profits, other pastoral staff etc.

This is of course only if a church truly desires to have a full-time pastor. However, I highly recommend having a bi-vocational pastor where he is asked to minister the Word of God, have the other logistics covered by the congregation, and have the expectations of availability adjusted accordingly. Paul was a tent maker, Jesus was a carpenter, have our pastors have their own trade as well. This will relieve tons of pressure on the pastors. If a church finds this untenable then they should seek to provide a living wage for their pastors while not making other unnecessarily large financial commitments.

It has been demonstrated that financial pressures can be the top thing that destroys marriages and drives people to depression – then we wonder why so many pastoral families fall apart? Why so many leave the ministry? Well, despite all the pressures in ministry, financial pressure is easily one of the top issues. This is why I, and many others, opted to enter the secular workforce and operate our own personal ministries independently. Think about that for a moment. Good pastors have chosen not to receive a salary at a church and continue to minister independently just to avoid the absolute trainwreck that is church-based financial pressure. Want healthy pastors? Have realistic expectations, don’t let small things get in the way, give your pastor space, and compensate them fairly. If you choose not to pay a pastor at all (as many pastors/churches choose to do), then adjust your expectations accordingly and understand his time will be far more limited.

LIVING IN A FISHBOWL

Pastors and their families are continually living under the microscope of other people’s perceptions. Often this leaves pastors and their families feeling like they are walking on eggshells – even in their own home. Remember those absurd expectations I rambled on about? This is where those expectations become invasive as everyone becomes the critic of you and your family. Your child having a bad day? People will think their pastor is a poor parent. Dealing with a personal family problem? People will think you’re distant and disinterested in the church. Like sci-fi movies? Well, someone at church might find those horrendously evil. Like to watch sports at your favorite bar and grill? Sounds good, unless Miss. Shirley at church doesn’t like the idea of her pastor going to a sports bar. Like to play video games online with your friends from seminary? Well, if brother Ken finds out, he’s going to be upset. Did you go shopping at Target? Well, someone’s going to get mad that you’re supporting a place with a backwards bathroom policy (while they order another package on Amazon). On and on I could go, but you get the picture. Everything you do is often scrutinized. You’re not allowed a personal life. Whatever you enjoy doing privately better stay private, or else you might be in for more church drama.

Consider what message this sends to pastors and their families. “Don’t tell anyone at church we watched Lord of the Rings, went to the movies, went to the beach, went to that restaurant, had a glass of wine, have an Amazon membership etc.” Due to constant scrutiny pastors often live secluded lives at home and have even fewer close friends. What this essentially communicates to pastors is they should live double lives. They should not be open and vulnerable but closed off from the very people they are to be shepherding. Where’s the sense in that? No one wants their job to be that invasive in their personal life. Well, neither do pastors, and this is one of the top complaints I have heard from ex-pastors. They were tired of their personal life always being under scrutiny because of the fickle nitpicking of cantankerous church members.

THE LONESOME ROAD

Now, if you consider everything I’ve discussed up to this point, it should be no surprise to you that many pastors don’t have close friends. In fact, in my first seminary, I was told not to have any close friends within the church I pastored. Why? Because I was to be their shepherd, not their friend. I deeply disagreed with this (and still do), so when I began pastoring, I befriended everyone. I was open and honest at all times – and this backfired hard. When decisions were made these people didn’t like, they were quick to take all our joking, confiding, general conversations, and twist them as weapons for their cause. I remember I was shocked when this happened. I couldn’t imagine Christians being so malicious toward one another (told you I was naïve). The first time this happened I remember thinking to myself, “screw it, I’m not befriending anyone. At this point, pastoring is my job. Nothing more.” I quickly realized how foolish and childish such a thought was and chose to press on. This happened a few more times and I grew increasingly apprehensive of developing any friendships within the church as I really didn’t want to deal with that sort of betrayal again. Originally, I thought my story was unique and I just happened to get the short straw.  That was until I began to talk to other pastors, and they echoed similar sentiments.

This didn’t make ministry any easier though. I didn’t have many close friends. Most my close friends were states away. Honestly, I accepted that I’d likely be mostly alone. I’d call friends and family whenever I really needed to talk to someone, and just continue pastoring my flock. I would bear the burdens of the flock, and my distant relationships would serve to bear my own burdens. Needless to say, this wasn’t healthy, but it was certainly better than dealing with potential drama. As I’ve spoken with and counseled other ministers, I have grown to realize many pastors operate the same way since being open and vulnerable with a group of people can result in people using that against you. Many pastors have no one to confide in if they’re struggling. After all, pastors are supposed to “have it all together” and thus are not allowed mistakes, human error, or struggles. It’s no wonder why so many pastors leave the ministry or fall into living double lives.

In all actuality, churches should strive to have an open and honest relationship with everyone within its walls, the pastor included. The church is instructed to operate in unity and bear one another’s burdens. Unity isn’t possible if people are continually striving to nitpick. Bearing burdens isn’t possible if no one is able to share their burdens. We will never succeed as a church if we continue to ostracize our ministers in hopes that in their isolation, they will remain strong. Pastors are often surrounded by people, but the loneliest person in the room. Everyone comes to him for their problems, but he has no one to confide in about his own burdens. After all, last time he did, someone condemned him for it, ran around, and used it as political leverage. I am not referring to grave immoral sin here either, I’m talking about standard struggles or even how he operates his own home on a day-to-day basis. Yes, even the daily operations of his home could come under fire because someone thinks he’s “too strict” while another person will accuse him of being “too loose”. It’s an impossible tightrope for many pastors to walk, so they just choose to distance themselves from the flock. Keeping their personal lives practically a secret.

CORPORATE CHURCH

A lot of these issues stem from the culture by which we have cultivated the church. Many of us go “church shopping” and enter churches wondering what the church can do for us and not what we can do for the church. This is because the Western world is extremely consumer and individualistically minded, and not communal. What can often happen is a new family comes into the church and begins to attend for a few months. The pastor has gotten to know them, maybe had them over for dinner, and invested into them. However, a while later these people leave because they feel the church doesn’t meet their needs.

I remember this happened with one family. We had gotten to know them over the course of a year, had dinner with them, went to movies with them, and even connected with their kids. Eventually this family left the church, why? Because they didn’t feel “connected” in the church. This same family would show up to service notoriously late and leave as soon as service was over. It was no wonder they weren’t connected to anyone in the church – they were never there. Want to get connected in the church? Get to know people within the church. Show up early and fellowship. Find ways you can serve in the church. To expect to barely show up, warm a pew, leave, and somehow have a rich connection is just unrealistic.

Situations like this can cause pastors or churches to stop viewing church members as Christian brothers/sisters but instead to begin viewing them as customers. After all, these people seem to only want to consume, not serve. They seem only interested in the self, and not others. Plus, if they leave, the church will lose funding, the pastor might lose his salary, a missionary might have to be dropped, and on and on the list could go. Thus, churches start aiming everything on Sunday morning to be a performance of sorts where they do everything they can to be as seeker friendly as possible. Does it tend to create shallow followers? Yes. But does it ensure the business model operates well and the customers stay happy? Absolutely.

This places undue pressure on pastors as they attempt to lead the church in the ways of God. Either they can gear things to be seeker friendly and compromise their principles, or they can stick to their principles, but many might protest that it’s not “inclusive” enough. This is the problem with corporate church -we’ve made pastorship a career and the congregation his customers. These customers will spend money there or take it on down the road where they can get a product that better suits them. It’s a relentless and unnecessary pressure all because we treat church like a business. The church should be a fellowship, the office of the pastor something to be respected, and the service should be used to encourage and equip the brethren. In short, the church ought to be a living and breathing organism. The goal should be to grow people spiritually, not necessarily numerically. It ought to be community minded, not individualistically focused. The church isn’t a business, it is the Body of Christ. A fellowship of believers.

In fact, I would personally encourage pastors to become bi-vocational if they can or in the very least have a skill that can effectively be used in the secular work force (after all, even Paul was a tent maker). This removes a lot of the aforementioned financial pressures, allowing the pastor financial freedom and it also pushes the church a little further away from a corporate model. However, if your pastor does serve in the workforce, then a church must adjust their expectations for a pastor. If he is juggling two jobs – then it will mean he’s going to have less time to do miscellaneous duties and will have to focus on the main parts of being a pastor. If you do choose to pay your pastor full-time then still be sure to curb expectations and not to create a corporate atmosphere where you’re the paying customer, he’s the CEO, and the church is the business. That is about as toxic as it is stupid and just creates numerous problems in a church.

BURNOUT

Needless to say, this can cause pastors and their families to experience exhaustion in the pastorate where they feel they are perpetually navigating a mine field. When I talk to pastors/missionaries I have repeatedly heard that they feel they are continually pouring out and very few people pour back. This isn’t because these people are weak or desire pity, it’s just spiritual physics. If you live to only serve others and never receive any form of appreciation, only demands, you will continually drain yourself. In short, ministers need to be ministered to as well. Sometimes this could involve a card, a gift, or just being willing to serve in the ministry. Sadly, most people prefer to attend than to serve, and this can be a serious discouragement to a pastor. If not discouraging, it can certainly be exhausting.

Think about it for a moment. A pastor is preaching multiple times a week, leads worship, has discipleship meetings, counsels people, hosts activities, studies, visits people in need, is filling in for three different ministries, and for weeks he has been announcing that they need someone willing to help in nursery. Weeks turn into months as he continues to announce that their nursery workers need help – all he ever receives is an awkward silence. For months he has been serving everyone beyond his expected duties, and he can’t even get someone to volunteer to go on a nursery rotation. This sort of thing is disheartening to a pastor because as he, and a select few people, continue to serve the congregation…the congregation never wants to serve in return. This can cause a number of problems: resentment toward the congregation, cliques amongst the leadership, the same people running things for years and eventually never wanting to give up their seat, and even complacency as people fall into routine. This list could be endless, but you get the point.

This pastor would obviously be struggling to keep his head above water. Let’s take the same pastor and say that on Sunday morning, right before he preaches, some lady in the church complains about a lack of family activities being done at the church. He acknowledges that he would like to create more opportunities for fellowship activities across all age groups and asks if she would be willing to organize such a thing. She responds with, “well, I’m super busy. I’m not looking to lead this thing, just thought it would be a good idea.” In a moment of transparency, the pastor responds, “well, if you’re not willing to lead it, I don’t think anyone’s going to. Most everyone else is stretched thin as it is.” Now, this Christian Karen gets upset and starts gossiping to everyone that pastor doesn’t care about fellowship, because if he did, he would do what she suggested.

The pastor goes up to the pulpit and preaches on Romans 9, ends service in a song, lifts up a final prayer, steps down from the platform and suddenly a man walks up to him and says, “I disagree with your take on that passage.” The man proceeds to tell him how theologically wrong the pastor is on this topic and others. The pastor asks if the man has read on the topic and studied it deeply. The man scoffs and says, “I don’t read them theology books. I just read the Bible for what it says!”. The pastor finds the statement amusing yet annoying as the pastor understands they both read the word but doesn’t mean you’re interpreting it properly. However, the pastor chooses to just graciously hear the man out and finally is cut loose from the awkward conversation. Suddenly he’s grabbed by someone else who informs him that Jane, an elderly woman in the church, lost her temper on Amanda again in the kitchen. The pastor begins to hurry over to see what the matter was, but not before he is grabbed by Richard who tells him “your sermons are good, but I really wish you’d slow down from time to time it’s hard to keep up with you!” Pastor acknowledges he could slow down and continues to walk quickly, trying to find Jane or Amanda. The words, “Hey Pastor!” ring across the hall, “These are my parents in from out of town! They were so excited to be here today.” He exchanges pleasantries with them and wishes them the best. He continues his search just to find out both women had left.

He goes home and attempts to call both of them. He gets in touch with Amanda, and she explains the situation. He knew that Jane could be territorial about the church kitchen and that it has been her baby for 36 years. With a deep breath he calls Jane. No answer. He gets a text from a church member telling him that Jane is calling people telling them her “new rules” for the kitchen. He tries to call her again. She picks up and lets her explain herself. After an hour conversation with her he gets her to calm down and things return to normal. He looks at the time and realizes he has to lead youth group in an hour. He rushes out and the night continues as normal. (As normal as youth group can possibly be that is)

As insane as this picture I’ve painted seems, this is a pretty normal occurrence for pastors. They are continually running to the next thing and stomping out fires all while people critique, engage in small talk, and complain about varying subjects. This can be exhausting mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I know personally, the burnout was the #1 thing that was wearing me down. Honestly, I can handle complainers, entitled Karens, and people’s subjective judgment. What I couldn’t handle was running around so much I’d rarely see my family. I chose to make a change. I got a career, built my own ministry from home, got involved in a friend’s church, became an Elder there, and I have found I am far more effective in ministry now than I ever have been. Why? Because all the aforementioned baggage I no longer have to endure. I have freedom I’ve never had and can personally invest into people’s lives directly. I can teach that which I believe to be biblical without having to question whether or not my job will be sustainable. Oddly enough, the removal of my pastoral salary was the thing that gave me the most ministerial freedom.

HOW TO KEEP GOOD PASTORS

I’m not saying that pastors would be better off quitting nor am I saying this describes every church. To make such a claim would be foolish. There are many healthy churches out there and many pastors in great positions. I am blessed to be in such a church. My goal here is to shine some light on the issues pastors are facing on a day-to-day basis and why so many leave. If this did describe your church, be part of the change.

However, I would be remiss if I didn’t follow through with some solutions to the problems. After all, I am known in my house to say, “don’t raise a complaint if you can’t raise a solution.” Honestly, as monumental as these problems are, they’re really more of a snowball effect with only a few issues at their core and it would really help absolve these issues completely.

1. Become a community: This is a nearly foreign concept in our Western world because we are so individually focused. If each individual shifted their focus on others within the community this would create less selfishness and thereby less self-centered ideals being pushed in the church. This would ideally result in less hurt people in the church in general (congregants and pastors alike). When one reads Acts, we see the early followers fellowshipping and breaking bread with one another, sharing their property etc. Why? Not because they were socialists (sorry progressives) but because they were a community who loved and cared for one another. This means putting others ahead of our egos.
2. Unity in Diversity: Remember that not everyone is going to agree on everything. If unity were conformity, then we wouldn’t see disagreements amongst apostles in the early church. But we do. Thus, it cannot be true. Rather, remembering unity in one Lord, one Spirit, one God, and one mission ought to be enough for believers to not despise one another, but rather to love one another. Allow for diverse opinions and even for leadership to make decisions that you might disagree with. Do not make mountains out of mole hills.
3. Remove Animosity: if you’re angry at someone in your church, go talk with them or learn to let it go. Animosity only breeds bitterness and resentment, things that hurt churches and yourself. You’re going to have to live with each other in heaven, so you may as well start practicing here on earth. A mark of a mature Christian is someone who can address each situation as it comes without constantly living in the past. There have been plenty of people in churches I have disagreed with, some that even frustrate or annoy me, but in the end they’re my brother or sister in Christ – show them love and respect.
4. Promote Mental Toughness: If you’re going to disagree with people in the church (and trust me you will) you better be able to have the mental fortitude to deal with that. The church gets nowhere with weak minded and strongly opinionated people. In Paul’s day he’s walking around a place like Corinth and dealing with a believer who is sleeping with his mother-in-law. Yet, nowadays, Christians can barely handle a mild disagreement or someone dropping a four-letter word. In short: toughen up. We are the Kingdom of God and sometimes we allow ourselves to be far too mentally fragile.
5. Serve in your church: Rather than criticizing everything in the church, how about you help in the church? Want change? Help foster it by carrying the burden of service. No one wants to work with someone who does nothing but has the nerve to complain about everything.
6. Don’t sweat the small stuff: At some point in your life, you need to figure out your “non-negotiables” in a church and then stick to those. If your non-negotiables are shallow surface level items – you should deeply reconsider your thoughts. Try keeping them simple: Do they preach the good news of Christ? Do they believe in the divinity of Christ? What’s their position on Scripture? How do they promote a Spirit of Christ within the church? It’s okay to attend a church where you don’t agree on everything. Just be sure that you know what you will not negotiate on – and honestly that list should be pretty short and kept to the essentials of the Christian faith.
7. Be humble: The biggest issue in all of these things is pride. If you’re attacking the church or its people, you really need to slow down and consider if it’s truly worth it? I’ve known people who will never walk into a church again because of the division some Christians were sowing. Put your pride and ego aside and learn to work together and never attack another believer or his family over a trivial disagreement.
8. Think of your church as an extension of Christ: Do not view it as an extension of yourself, your preferences, your agenda, or your own passions. If you cause division, ask yourself if it’s worth taking a hammer to the Body of Christ? One must seriously consider the repercussions. If Christ died for the church, then consider that every move you make could cause damage to the church for which Christ died.
9. Mind your business: Let’s be honest – sometimes we need to keep our thoughts and opinions to ourselves. As someone who is highly opinionated and speaks regularly in his public ministry, I try to speak less about every single waking opinion I might have at church regarding matters that don’t concern me. It saves me a lot of headache and also is a way to promote unity. If you get involved do so in a way that is seeking to build up, exhort, and bear one another’s burdens. Not in a way to drive your own agenda forward. And speaking of business – stop thinking of it like a business where it’s a product and you are the customer. No. This is Christ’s church, and you are a member of it. Don’t get it twisted.
10. Take care of your Jerusalem: Whether you like it or not, the church you’re at is your church. These are your people. This is your Jerusalem. Take care of it. Support your church’s ministry, including your pastor. You won’t always agree and that is just fine. In fact, your maturity will shine through when you support him even when you disagree. Financially prioritize your Jerusalem and you might just see enough growth to care for the uttermost parts of the world. If a church cannot (or chooses not to) financially support their pastor – then adjust expectations accordingly. Don’t expect full time work if he is not a full-time employee. If he is full time and your church has prioritized that, then be sure to still keep healthy expectations. After all, he’s a pastor, not your hireling. You do not own him. Often times Israel failed because they became divided amongst each other, became entitled, stirred up division, and did not properly prioritize. Do not follow their pattern – prioritize Jerusalem.

By Will Hess

Recent events have sparked between us, The Church Split, and the renowned Dr. James White. This article you are reading is a more honest, straightforward, and detailed sequel to White’s libelous blog post about myself (here). Originally I was going to ignore it and laugh it off. However, after giving it some thought I believe it would be prudent to have the exchange documented properly as to not be misconstrued. Whether I want it to be relevant or not, many more people will see Dr. White’s thoughts prior to our own. This can lead to many poor understandings of the events and processes that took place. Thus, I thought I should at least publish the entire exchange, with my own explanations, as White already posted his thoughts and only included a portion of the conversation on Twitter.  So let’s recap some recent events that will become relevant as we go. 

For those in the theological community, many people will be aware of the controversy between David Pallmann (my personal friend) and Dr. James White. Even though White denies this, he recently attacked Pallmann and implied that no one should take Pallmann seriously due to his age and his place of employment (Dillard’s). This caused a storm of outrage by various people groups and some of the best memes I’ve seen in ages. However, White stated on a recent Dividing Line that Pallmann was a liar for these charges. Now, the esteemed Dr. James White has stated I (Will Hess) do not understand basic grammar laws or the meaning of words. So let’s have his words speak for himself. (I have highlighted the relevant information)

“So I was finishing up my 21st conference at Covenant of Grace Church in St. Charles when I heard people talking about “the coming storm.” So I started looking at the weather and my travel plans. Let’s just say I am thankful that I invested an extra four hours of travel today and have managed to get myself out of at least the direct path of this winter storm, and guaranteed my being in Conway on time to begin teaching my first class as a full professor at GBTS (Apologetics) starting this Thursday. I am from Phoenix, and while I have already seen snow on this trip, they are now talking about more than six inches in areas I had planned on being over the next few days. No thank you!  My detour should also make it possible to do a DL Tuesday and Wednesday as well.

So last evening I was trying to catch up after the conference with what has been going on when I see a discussion in passing about Greg Bahnsen. I see someone named David Pallmann giving a “hot take” on Bahnsen, and some discussion taking place. So I go, “Did I miss something? Who is David Pallmann, and why are Reformed folks responding to his ‘hot take’?” So I clicked on it and found the “hot take.”

Hot Take: Greg Bahnsen wasn’t a particularly brilliant or original thinker. Most of his ideas predate him and have been developed far more rigorously by other thinkers. I would go as far as to submit to you that Bahnsen’s popularity has nothing to do with his rigor and everything to do with his rhetorical capabilities. I believe that his fans generally mistake his strong and confident words for sound argumentation. While we’re on the topic, I don’t think that Bahnsen is an isolated case. The Calvinist community in general is easily seduced by strong rhetoric which tells them what they want to hear. Think of James White, Scott Oliphint, Paul Washer, Jeff Durbin, Sye Ten Bruggencate, etc. All of these gentlemen are, in my opinion, very shallow thinkers and yet they are lauded by the Calvinist community. I don’t say this to be demeaning towards these individuals or to Calvinists. I would simply urge those who listen to these individuals to be careful that they are not mistaking rhetoric for rigor.

So, I track this gentleman down on Facebook and look at his information. He looks like maybe 25 years old, maximum. And he self-describes as:

Evidentialist
Radical Internalist
Christian Rationalist
Classical Arminian
Classical Foundationalist

I am not even sure what he means by some of that, but any young man who puts all of that on his FB bio is hardly going to be in a position to provide much of a meaningful insight into the work of Greg Bahnsen.  In fact, you would expect an “evidentialist” and a “classical Arminian” to not find a lot of helpful material in Bahnsen, or in any of the others listed (including myself).

So I did not say much about the topic other than to screenshot his own description, and I purposefully included his own provided employment: sales associate at Dillard’s. It’s relevant.

I saw nothing in his “hot take” that demonstrated the slightest meaningful knowledge of Bahnsen’s work. His words sounded like a kid dissing a new band for not playing music in the exact way he wants it played. There was no substance. And when you then looked at his age, his self-description, and his standing and work, you found absolutely nothing that would explain why anyone, and I mean anyone, would care in the least about this “hot take.” A twenty-something Arminian kid thinks Greg Bahnsen was not a deep thinker and is only popular for his rhetorical skills. Forgive me for not thinking he has read Bahnsen’s work on Van Til, or, if he did, that he understood it.

But here is what has me just a bit hot under the collar this evening. I dropped the screen shot not for this young man, for I doubted he would even see it. I put it there for my fellow Reformed folks. Its purpose should have been obvious.  Why on God’s green earth are we even talking about a single paragraph that simply has no standing? It has no substance, its author has yet to produce anything that would give him standing to make such sweeping conclusions no matter how much time he may have to read between customers at Dillard’s. So why are we wasting our time? I see stuff like this every day. I just scroll on by, or, if it is particularly egregious, mute, or maybe block, just to save myself aggravation in the future. But my whole intention was to say, in passing, to my own tribe, “Uh, really, guys? You are surprised this young fellow broad-brushes Bahnsen when this is how he describes himself? Don’t we have more important things to be doing?” The whole thing might have taken five minutes, probably less, last evening, and I sure did not give it a second thought afterward.

Until this morning, that is, when I find I have been messaged by Chris Date, rebuking me for posting the graphic, and saying it was “beneath me” to include his own information concerning what he does. I did not have time this morning for any of this silliness, to be honest, as I had to get out of the way of an oncoming winter storm, and I had no desires to be pulling my 5th wheel in bad weather, especially snow or ice. But the thought crossed my mind, “I wonder if that young fellow is one of Chris Date’s students at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary?” Upon getting set up at my new location, and hearing from another person about the topic, I checked and, yup, lo and behold, there is the connection. If you are not aware, that particular school is home to such folks as Johnathan Pritchett, Braxton Hunter, Leighton Flowers, and Tim Stratton. To say that presuppositionalism would be an unpopular view there would be to engage in massive understatement.

So I am sorry people missed the point of my tiny little graphical comment. I asked, “Who is David Pallmann?” and then provided his own self-provided information, all of which was directly to the point: he is clearly committed to a denial of Bahnsen’s foundational premises, and, he is in no position to provide a “hot take” that is anything other than “hot air”. He has not, as yet, produced the work, teaching, writing, or studying, to give him a basis for making broad, sweeping statements dismissing the depth of work (and the broad expanse of work) that Greg did in an even tragically shortened life.

I will close with this. The Internet encourages youthful arrogance and foolishness. When I read great men of the past, I see Calvin producing the first edition of the _Institutes_, and Owen writing _The Death of Death in the Death of Christ_, both at very young ages. And yet both works breathe maturity. Cyber activity does not seem to produce the same kind of maturity that hard work did in the past. I do not know Mr. Pallmann, but I would very strongly suggest he take the time to track down (it is available on line) Bahnsen’s final sermon. I knew Greg, not well, but well enough to know that he had diabetes, and was facing yet another open heart surgery in late 1995.  He knew the chances were not good he would survive, and so he preached the last Sunday before his surgery. In essence, he got to preach his own funeral service. For years I had a cassette tape copy of that sermon (I am sure I still do, in a box somewhere). I listened to it again just recently. I would like to think that if Mr. Pallmann would listen to that sermon, he might hesitate, next time, before giving a “hot take” on a departed servant of the Lord who did so much in such a brief time given to him.”

Facebook:
James R. White
1/31/2022
8:47PM

Remember, White called David a liar for saying that White attacked him for his age and place of employment and in this very post by White – he admits to doing so deliberately. I knew White had a particular reputation amongst the theological community for such behavior, but it was definitely surreal witnessing these events take place. Especially since I had always respected White, even though I personally disagreed with him on a lot of topics and haven’t always appreciated his tone or representations. Regardless, I have always been appreciative of White as he was instrumental in my studies on textual issues (being raised KJV-Only), has done great work in defending the Trinity, and we even had him on our program. Needless to say, I have never hated White, but I have found some of his behavior troubling over the years at those whom he disagrees with. After these events with Pallmann, my skepticism became more concrete. 

It is also worth noting I take no issue in White attacking  Pallmann’s beliefs. In the theological world it is usually wise to separate beliefs from people and to readily attack belief systems while attempting to keep people’s dignity intact. Rarely does anyone do this perfectly, but it should be a modest goal. Thus, to attack someone’s employment, youth, or character based on a difference of belief system is usually considered poor taste. Regardless, White is clearly unfamiliar with Pallmann’s work as Pallmann published a lengthy in depth analysis of Presuppositional Apologetics quoting people like Van Til and Bahnsen. 

Additionally, a few months ago David and I chose to begin a review of Dr. White’s book “The Potter’s Freedom” soon after the first of the year. We both had read the book as it is praised by Calvinists everywhere as one of the best books on Calvinism. However, after reading the book David and I both found it wanting. In which case, we decided we would broadcast a series going through varying excerpts of the book while discussing its issues. We thought this would be a fun and interesting experience as David and I both agree and disagree on a number of theological issues, but we both agree that Calvinism is wrong. This would allow us to present our own respective views in the discussion. Finally, we scheduled this series around the time that White disparaged Pallmann for his age and employment.

Then on February 11th, Dr. White debated Dr. Stratton on the topic of Molinism. Since then White has made many comments about Dr. Stratton and even implied that it wasn’t a real debate (because he evidently found Stratton inept). Recently Molinism has been on White’s radar and he has made many sweeping statements regarding Molinists, Molinism, and Dr. Stratton. Some of which are gross misrepresentations – which is exactly what caused our twitter exchange where White only published select responses. Nor did he post his own tweets – only my own. 

Before going through the exchange, let it be noted that I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I have no issue with people correcting me and I really have no issue with admitting when I am wrong – much to the contrary to what White has maligned. My theology now compared to what it used to be is vastly different and this happened by avid study and receiving correction from many people. I also take no issue with people giving the logical conclusion of an argument, as long as the conclusion actually follows and is not a strawman representation. With that said, I would like to finally address the exchange.

James White to Will Hess

“@thechurchsplit  Hey Will: off the top of your head, without googling, which came first in Luthers (sic) development: the material principle or the formal principle of the Reformation?” 

James White (Feb. 14, 2022 at 12:42pm)

This tweet came out of seemingly nowhere that day so I chose to ignore it as I knew he was attempting to rope me into an exchange. The question was entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand in the episode with Pallmann and myself. Later on in his program, White stated that he was asking if we knew the difference between the formal principle (scripture alone) and material principle (salvation by grace alone through faith alone) of the Reformation. He was referencing a moment in our livestream where we briefly discussed the Reformation due to comments in his book. His book claims, “The issue of God’s absolute freedom and man’s absolute dependence is, in fact, the very central issue of the entire Reformation” (Pg. 34). David and I both disagreed with White’s claim for varying reasons. Pallmann stated he believed it was primarily the role of Scripture that was the defining issue. Myself, I believe history is far more complex to say that there is one singular issue that caused the entire Reformation. Either way, Luther’s principles and Luther’s beliefs are not the sole authority of the Reformation. Luther is but one man in a large historical event – he does not get to define the entire period of history. In reality, White pressing for Luther’s definitions is moot unless the opposition accepts Luther’s definitions as the standard. Personally, I find most of Luther’s teachings problematic and some of them even detestable.

Later on White did a livestream where he admits he saw that Pallmann and I had done a book review, only watched the first 20 minutes (which was admittedly mostly banter), and stated that it was filled with too many errors to take seriously, and took the time to “debunk” jokes, cursory statements on the Reformation, or mispronunciations. We found this to be hilarious as it just came off as petty as opposed to substantive (after all, even White can’t pronounce Thanos correctly in his debate with Stratton). Brian Bode, co-host of The Church Split, posted a clip on Twitter of White admitting he had not watched the entire episode. It should be noted Brian only chose to do this because at this point White called Pallmann a liar and myself a heretic on various episodes. 

“@HwsEleutheroi @thechurchsplit
I have a lot of respect for Dr. White and I find the banter between Will/David and him funny, but you have to admit, if you are going to characterize something, its (sic) best to watch the whole thing first before making 3 separate response videos to it..”

Brian Bode (02/15/2022 at 8:03pm)

James White to Brian Bode:

“Could you explain why I would have to listen to all of it to correct the errors that are present from the start? Do you really think they went back and fixed their whoppers later on?”

James White

Brian Bode to James White:

“Yes because if Will did a book review of the Potter’s Freedom and read only chapter 1 you would have made the same comment.  In your debates you tell people they can’t use an argument one way to prove their point and then the opposite way to prove their next point.”

Brian Bode

*White never responds*

Will Hess to Brian Bode:

“I mean this is the person who tweeted today that Molinists deny the triune God and that we never demonstrated any misrepresentations – although we did.
Ex: Molinists are not trying to rob God of any freedom. Not a single one would claim that’s the reason for their belief.”

Will Hess

I was referencing a Tweet from earlier where White, once again, attacked Molinists through misrepresentation and practically called them heretics who deny the Triune God of Christianity. In the following discourse you will see that he denies such a claim, but again, words have meaning and you can’t have your cake and eat it too. White also claimed that Pallmann and myself never demonstrated a single moment where White misrepresented another view. This however is not only false, but becomes obvious when one reads the Tweet I was referencing regarding the Triune God. Here is the aforementioned tweet.

“It is seriously sad that someone who claims to be a Reformed theologian could parallel God’s freely ordaining “whatsoever comes to pass” with Hydra controlling Bucky’s mind. This is why Molinism creates the myth of MK: they do not believe the Triune God, who split the sea, …raised the dead, multiplied the fishes and loaves, holds the billions of galaxies in His hand yet froze time in place to prove His faithfulness (Joshua 10:13), could create the realm of time in which to display His glory, reveal His attributes, all with exact precision, …so that His perfect will is accomplished by means of the real, meaningful, culpable actions of creatures made in His image.”

James White (02/13/2022 at 9:56pm)

(I will address this tweet later on, but for now I will just use it to provide context.)

James White to Will Hess:

“Will, your reading comprehension is so skewed by your bias it is shocking.
No semi-unbiased person could misread what I wrote as badly as you did.
Take a deep breath, put your detestation of Calvinism aside, and try reading what I wrote one more time.  I’ll wait.”

James White

Notice the tone that White automatically takes by attacking character and intelligence, rather than addressing the topic at hand. You see, I wasn’t aware of this tweet until a Facebook group I am a member of posted it, and everyone was trying to figure out if White truly meant that Molinists deny the Triune God, His deeds, or His attributes. I was not alone in reading it this way (even in the thread this conversation is taking place in). It’s a sort of “hot take” on Molinism by the very person who maligned Pallmann for his own “hot take”. The difference is, Pallmann admitted his was a hot take, but White does not. This is because White’s post wasn’t intended to be a hot take, but a statement he believed to be logically coherent and fundamentally sound. It’s not…

Will Hess to James White:

“Condescension won’t get you far with me. These are your words. You said Molinists don’t believe in the Triune God, who accomplishes all these non-controversial things. 
It’s not my detestation of Calvinism here that’s the issue – it’s your misrepresentation of Molinists.” *posts screenshot of aforementioned tweet*

Will Hess

James White to Will Hess:

“So, I point out that in English, the direct object of the denial is “could create the realm of time,” NOT “the Trinity,” and despite this obvious, inarguable reality, you refuse to accept the correction?”
This is amazing evidence of a serious imbalance, Will.”

James White

Will Hess to James White:

“Again, condescension doesn’t work. But it was a run on sentence. (sic) One that myself and others couldn’t even decifer. (sic)  (typo: decipher. White was quick to point this out on his blog.) 

Regardless, molinists (sic) affirm God is outside of time and created it. So to say Molinists “deny the triune God…could create the realm of time” – is blatantly untrue.

So you have a misrepresentation – again. Just another demonstration of it. 

Also, it was admittedly sloppily worded, but according to your own standard, If someone sloppily misspeaks – they aren’t to be taken seriously at all. 

Is it true for me but not for thee?”

Will Hess

The point here is obvious for anyone reading with a shred of honesty. He states that we never demonstrated how we misrepresented him, while saying Molinists deny the very thing they ardently affirm. Not just something they affirm, but something that is intrinsic to their doctrine. Namely, that God is outside of time, and created the realm of time. My other points regarding “if someone sloppily misspeaks” was in reference to his show where because I misspoke on a small statement – he states I shouldn’t be taken seriously. My point here was to show that in his efforts to come off superior, he is only coming off petty and pedantic. At this point a simple apology for the misrepresentation would suffice or a clarification statement on what was truly meant definitionally. Instead, White doubles down and chooses to condescend further.

James White to Will Hess:

“Will, my original thread was clear. I have “admitted” nothing about it being “sloppily worded.” Could you demonstrate where it was, grammatically?

The fact is, you misread it, then doubled down on the misreading, and now are saying it was “sloppily worded.”  …

The problem here, Will, is that you are ostensibly “reviewing” a book that is many thousands of times longer than my tweet. If you failed so badly with 115 words (I counted), doesn’t this explain the face-plantingly bad content we have reviewed thus far?”

James White

Take note of the side step here, that he is not dealing with the accusation of misrepresentation, but instead is trying to speak adjacent to the topic at hand. I want to discuss the actual meaning of his words, and he is attempting to argue for grammatical structure. (Hilariously, my sister actually parsed the sentence out and we will likely feature it on a future program where she shows the misplaced comma that causes the confusion).

Will Hess to James White (at 3:20pm):

“You can’t help but be pedantic can you? Again, condescension doesn’t work on me nor does it make me feel any less, it just shows a woeful argumentation flaw here. 

It wasn’t clear. I am not the only one who noticed such. However, let’s say for the sake of argument it was. Even if it was clear. Each and every one of those attributes the majority of Christians agree with. Molinists even affirm that God created time, they definitely affirm that God split the Red Sea -so you’ve essentially stated that Molinists deny the acts of God in scripture. Which is the same thing in essence. You can spin this however you want, but your statement is a misrepresentation of Molinists. I don’t know a single Molinist that denies any of those attributes. So yea, it was sloppy. So according to your own answer, anyone who misspeaks shouldn’t be taken seriously…they shouldn’t be taken seriously and it was even “embarrassing”. (referencing his own words toward me on his program)

No matter which way you spin this – it flies in the face of your own statements. That’s the reality.

So I’m not doubling down, I’m merely saying that no matter which way you spin it – you stated that Molinists deny the very God of Scripture they affirm. When (sic) (typo: whether)  you mean His tri-unity or His attributes and actions.” 

Will Hess

*White never responds*

This tweet was never published by Dr. White and I believe it is obvious as to why. Molinists affirm that God, “could create the realm of time in which to display His glory, reveal His attributes, all with exact precision, …so that His perfect will is accomplished by means of the real, meaningful, culpable actions of creatures made in His image.” By claiming that Molinists deny such, he is saying that they deny the very attributes of the Triune God that Christians affirm. For him to claim that he never said they denied the Triune God is to be obtuse. Let me give an example. If I said that I love my wife, but I can’t stand that she’s 4’ 10”, Korean, introverted, quiet, selfless, sweet, and meek – one would rightfully point out, “Will, you said you love her, but it sounds like you hate everything about her.” Such an objection would be appropriate. Likewise, to say that Molinists don’t believe the Triune God could create the realm of time to display His glory, reveal His attributes, accomplish His will all with perfect precision, is to say that Molinists don’t affirm the Triune God at all. To deny His attributes while affirming who He is would be nonsensical. This is the primary reason why myself and others objected to his statement. Regardless, this point was lost on White and he chose to ignore it. Hours later he published an article containing only a few of my tweets while removing all of his own in favor of a narration. 

“I have compiled an article documenting @thechurchsplit ‘s errors and falsehoods concerning the thread from 2/13. I hope he will retract his false statements.” Link

James White Tweets at 6:29pm

Will Hess to James White:

“Ah, so we don’t respond anymore – we just write articles. Got it 👍

So to be clear – Molinists don’t believe the Triune God split the Red Sea? Asking because a lowly podcaster doesn’t understand sentences.”

Will Hess

Due to White’s tendency to ignore actual points against his statements, refuse to interact with actual objections, and only to gaslight and shift – I began to treat his statements the same way I would treat most any other twitter troll – with a sharp sense of sarcasm. Whether one agrees with this approach or not is irrelevant at this point. I have a general rule, people who refuse to engage you meaningfully, understand your position, speak with clarity, or act overly dismissive to your points – don’t really need to be taken seriously. White had only served to remind me of many of the most staunch IFB pastors or progressive Christians I had interacted with on the dumpster fire that is Twitter. By sidestepping, ignoring, condescending, and gasligthing, I knew not to take anything else he had to say with any amount of seriousness. 

James White to Will Hess: 

“I will add this to the end, if you wish, as final documentation that you refuse all correction, and intend to stick to your straw man misreading of the original statement.  Give me a few moments.”  

James White

(I was pleased to see that this did indeed make it into his post) 

Once again, instead of engaging meaningfully, he just threatens to publish one last tweet as if I were a misbehaving child. The irony here is not lost on me though. For I had explained multiple times that White had misrepresented Molinists and his statements were not accurate. Instead of at least admitting how the misunderstanding could have taken place, he doubled down. He refused all correction. The very thing he was accusing me of. This is why rather than gaslighting and condescending, a meaningful explanatory conversation is likely more beneficial. Which is why I took the time to explain the issues and even gave room for the possibility of misunderstanding by granting a few of his points. However, White would not return the favor. Thus, I chose to remain cheeky while giving him one last time to give me a straight answer.

Will Hess to James White:

“You seem awfully upset for me just doing what I was decreed to do…

To be clear then, Molinists do not believe that God created time? Split the Red Sea? I mean…I’d hate to come off like I “refuse correction” but at this point it seems we are being a bit obtuse.”

Will Hess

*White Never Responds*

Others pointed out to White that his statement was unclear, and that others read it as offensively as I did. Rather than taking a moment to see why this could be, White chooses to double down and condescend to those who were objecting. One such example is: 

James White to Someone Else:

“Wait…more people actually can twist my sentence into an assertion Molinists deny the Trinity?  How? Please explain this process to me, since you have called me a liar now.”

James White

White’s followers were saying I and others have “8th grade reading levels” amongst a cacophony of other bloviating responses. Regardless of their statements, either White is saying that Molinists deny the Triune God, the actions that God has done, or the attributes that make Him uniquely God. All of which is a lie against Molinist positions and is blatantly untrue. If he wants to discuss how exactly those things are defined, that would seem a much more honest approach. Unfortunately, oftentimes in our effort to be grandiose in our speech – it can lead to imprecision. Normally, I would overlook such an error, but White has recently shown that he is unable to do so, and it is my goal to simply expose that he cannot live up to his own standards that he lambasts others for. 

THREAD WITH BRIAN

White:

“Could you explain why I would have to listen to all of it to correct the errors that are present from the start? Do you really think they went back and fixed their whoppers later on?”

James White

Brian:

“Dr. White – to be fair to you I bought your book today.

One thing I found ironic was on page 22 when you say Geisler made no “attempt… to address the actual argument and the reasoning set forth”. 

So you do agree with addressing the best arguments and not say the 1st 20 min.”

Brian Bode

White:

“I believe I asked you before: are you seriously objecting to responding to clear and obvious errors presented in the first few minutes of a lengthy video if I do not listen to the rest of it? Could you explain why I should wait to correct errors? Goodness, these guys say … there will be four or five of these videos. Using your reasoning, I should sit silently until they post the last one, right?

I took the time to show Dr. Geisler tremendous respect by carefully examining his writings on this topic, buying out-of-print copies of his works, 

and following his arguments up to the present work. I had even written to him in the process of writing my own work, asking him to explain certain aspects of his position.

There is no parallel to a supposed “review” done by two wildly unbalanced and biased critics.”

James White

I wanted to point out something that I think is important. White claims that Pallmann and myself are not balanced and that we are biased. The Church Split regularly admits that we have a bias – because everyone does. The idea of perfect objectivity is generally a myth. We all have preconceived notions and lean toward our bias. This is why we continually push that we need to escape our own echo chambers to help challenge our own biases. White is ardently Reformed – does that make him wildly unbalanced or unbiased? According to his own standard, yes. Honestly, I would just argue that he has a bias and we have a bias. Thus, we should challenge our biases and merely recognize them.

Brian:

“So far you have responded to their jokes, a couple comments about your book as a whole, and even responded to a comment of a viewer Will read. 

So yes I think the prudent thing would be to take the 2 hours to listen to something in its entirety before characterizing its whole.”

Brian Bode

White:

“I’m sorry, but what you are talking about, Brian?

I have responded, rather fully, on issues related to the Reformation, which they said I was utterly ignorant of. I demonstrated the opposite.  What are you referring to?”

James White

Brian:

“Right, that’s kinda my point, you have responded in great detail to a few jokes and initial characterizations. I have your book in hand as we speak, imagine if I gave a 30 min response to ch 1 noting that you barely mention geisler, not having read ch 2 yet where you clearly do.”

Brian Bode

*White Never Responds*

What Brian is pointing out is entirely true. On White’s program he debunked and attacked a few jokes cracked by myself (as if the joke itself was meant to be an argument) and then responded fully on Luther’s views of the Reformation – which neither Pallmann nor myself even touched on. The topic of the series is White’s book, not a play by play of the Reformation. This seems to have been lost on White as he continually side steps the points being made and continues to speak about the Reformation as if that is the focus of mine and Pallmann’s discussion. It’s not. 

Brian also points out that one should essentially “do their research” before painting with a broad brush. This is something Brian and I are passionate about because before we do any one of our rebuttal videos – we listen to the episode at least three times. We make notes and discuss what we think they mean by their statements. We attempt to do substantive responses devoid of ad hominem or other character attacks. This is why Brian had not joined us in our review – he hadn’t read the book and thought it would be dishonest. Granted, now he has read the book and will be joining us in the future. 

What is the moral of all this? That White would make a great journalist on CNN with his obvious slanted blog post? Perhaps. Maybe it’s that I should be more careful on exactly how I speak (or type) lest someone becomes pedantic? Possibly. However, I would posit that the greatest lesson in all of this is that Twitter is a toxic wasteland of absurdity where only those who are truly masochists spend their time. 

In all seriousness, it is not my goal to continually stir up trouble. I have no issue with people responding to my beliefs, framing them in a way that is consistent with their own beliefs, or even rebutting my thoughts. I do however take issue with lies and half truths while claiming to be dignified in the entire exchange. I am far from perfect, and I am happy to admit fault when I am at fault. I will not however remain silent when someone chooses to slander in such a dishonest way, calls someone who holds to orthodoxy a heretic, and calls another person a liar as he references your own public statements. If we want unity in the body of Christ – we will need to be a bit more honest than that. 

Now, I am far too busy to continually edit this post with any sort of update, and since I want this to be a living breathing document – enjoy the following feed.

Tweets by HwsEleutheroi

By Chris Stockman and Will Hess

I (Chris Stockman) wrote in a previous article about how I found apologetics. I was only in high school. There are a good many others like me that found apologetics at a young age. Also like me, and Will, they eventually “graduated” from the work of popular apologists like J Warner Wallace, Frank Turek, Sean or Josh McDowell, and now almost exclusively study scholars on specific questions within sub-disciplines of apologetics.

These individuals I call the young guns in apologetics (a more generous use of “young” in Will’s case), and you’ll frequently see them online in different discussion groups. Very knowledgeable on certain topics, despite lacking formal training on these issues. We are “autodidacts”; if there is a topic we want to know more on, we will study it for ourselves. We’ll read the primary sources that the popular apologists draw on in their work, and be able to speak confidently on complicated topics in theology and philosophy. By any other label, we would be competent apologists. 

However, there are many of us whose young age and quick study has led to losing sight of the goal of apologetics. These are the cage-stagers. They are bright, but are doing more harm than good at the moment. Tearing down pop apologists (Frank Turek is the preferred punching bag these days) is spare-time enjoyment. Now, Turek isn’t my favorite, but he’s a darn good apologist who has had the career and impact that his detractors will never have. Will and I have had several interactions with these cage-stagers, and have finally had enough, which prompts us to drop this. 

This is a declaration of war on the young apologists. 

What They Intended 

First, what are their intentions? They spend a lot of time criticizing the work of well-known figures. What they want to do is point out flaws in popular arguments (like the moral argument, or minimal facts argument for the resurrection) in order to address them and make the argument stronger and present a stronger Christianity. They’re not merely on a seek and destroy crusade against apologetics. But, in the words of Ultron, “I know you mean well. You just didn’t think it through.” 

The problem is 1) some of them do this far too often, and 2) some of them, if you didn’t know them from Adam, would be confused for the village atheist with what their critiques are as well as how incessant they are. Here, I am not saying not to criticize wrong ideas. Of course, if an apologist like Frank Turek or Michael Licona is incorrect on something, it should be (graciously) pointed out. But, by who? Twenty-something’s with YouTube channels that nobody watches? Even still, that does not call for commenting on everything a popular figure does and criticizing it as if you were giving feedback on an academic article, or chiding it for not drawing on your favorite philosopher’s monograph that costs $100 used. At that point it just becomes friendly fire. Someone who spends so much time criticizing pop apologists has, oddly enough, made their bed with the skeptics. 

What They Are Saying

Below are a couple examples of the sorts of things these individuals actually say in italics. These people are actually serious; they’re not joking. 

“But there are countless examples who are less popular than Frank Turek, but are better at defending the Christian faith. Joshua Rasmussen, Rob Koons, Eleonore Stump, Alexander Pruss, Joshua Sijuwade, Andrew Loke, Timothy McGrew, and Richard Swinburne are all great places to start.”

The claim is that you should start with these. Not gradually work your way up to, but start with. All of these names are indeed great thinkers. Worth reading. These are arguably the cream of the crop when it comes to intelligent Christians. But they are (with the possible exception of Rasmussen) horrible places to start. Starting with them would be the worst thing a young, budding apologist could do. In fact, I would recommend a presuppositionalist as a starting place before I would recommend that someone start with Andrew Loke or Richard Swinburne. (Bear in mind that I believe Presuppositionalism is utterly worthless in advancing Christianity.) 

So why would it be such a bad idea to start with great thinkers? It’s simple: aside from Rasmussen, they have done (practically) nothing at a lay level. I love, LOVE Richard Swinburne. One of the best theologians ever, his career has been in academia, publishing on topics ranging from philosophy of time to epistemology. But he is a chore to read, as he is a prime example of a brilliant mind with poor prose. Someone who just wants to be equipped with how they can give a simple answer to, say, a coworker’s claims of corruption in the Bible, does not need to read any of these great minds (more on that below). The aspiring apologist should start with what they can understand. Start with the accessible, lay-friendly work of the J. Warner Wallace’s and Frank Turek’s, and master it before graduating to the Swinburne’s and McGrew’s (if one has that level of interest). Starting with the high-octane thinkers would just turn away potential apologists by reinforcing the myth that “I’m not a good enough thinker to do apologetics”. (Hopefully, if nothing else, reading a presuppositionalist would show that you don’t need to be a good thinker to do apologetics.) I found apologetics in high school. While I’d love to brag on myself, there is absolutely no way I had any business reading something from those thinkers. I have to either seriously question the humility of these young so-called apologists, or else their self-awareness. 

Now, these young apologists aren’t all bad. They have gotten deep into the academic literature on arguments for God (a good thing! It’s very good to know far more about something than the skeptic.) But they have begun mistaking the tree (the academic sub-discipline they study) for the forest (apologetics). I would wager that 99% of people who listen to pop apologists will never examine each tree and study it to the roots. Rather, they set foot in the forest and that’s all they need. Their faith is edified not by the academic study of the answers, but by the fact that there are such answers that some people will study deeply. 

“This is not a case of people hating on Frank Turek for no reason. We want to raise the quality of Philosophy of Religion discussions.”

When has Frank Turek been billed as an expert on Phil. Religion? Who, of his audience, has even heard the term “philosophy of religion”? Why anyone is looking to Frank Turek as a philosopher of religion is a mystery to me. This is like tearing down the reputation of a high school pitcher for not hitting 90 mph with their fastball. (If you live under a rock as far as sports are concerned, high schoolers that can throw 90 are rare and sure to get a bunch of college offers.)

Turek is an excellent apologist, because he is an evangelist. Not a professional philosopher, but an evangelist. His focus is sharing the Gospel and equipping lay people, and how he does it is a whole lot better than the way his detractors aren’t doing it. Frankly, for someone to say something like this indicates they don’t even know the first thing about apologetics. That’s correct; as intelligent and advanced as they have gotten, they have no idea what they’re talking about when they talk on apologetics. Apologetics is about the gospel and equipping Christ’s church, not the academic discussions. It can involve those but it is not reducible to them. I think it a grievous mistake to reduce the Gospel of Christ to one of many items of discussion in the Philosophy of Religion arena.  

Now, have Turek and other apologists always done their apologetics well? No, of course not. There are times where they dismiss questions out of hand, and sometimes they don’t realize that the question they gave a surface-level answer to is actually a powerful objection. That is, of course, not good. But that is no more of an error than getting so cerebral in your “apologetics” that you’re no longer answering actual doubts that regular people have. For example, it’s great that you can point out the flaws in JL Schellenberg’s Hiddenness Argument. When’s the last time you met someone who uses that? I would be very surprised if it’s ever happened. So what do you have for college students facing unbiblical views on sexuality, or religious pluralism? 

Christian apologists aren’t preparing people to be academics. But this young fellow thinks they should be: 

“If seasoned apologists spent more time teaching up-and-coming Christian apologists how to respond to the likes of Graham Oppy, JH Sobel, and Evan Fales, they wouldn’t ever have to bother teaching them how to respond to the likes of Dawkins, Hitchens, and Dillahunty. Showing the flaws in bottom-tier atheist objections to Christianity borders on being a waste of time.”

Don’t you know what it’s like to be in conversation with a skeptic and they bring up Sobel’s Bayesian argument against the resurrection, or quote Graham Oppy’s Arguing About Gods to you?…you don’t? Yeah, me neither. I talk with skeptics regularly (in person, which is the last thing many of Turek’s detractors do), and “the likes of Graham Oppy, JH Sobel, and Evan Fales” have been mentioned a sum total of never. So why should apologists prepare the younger generation to encounter those arguments? There is no need. Apologists such as Frank Turek have done just fine at equipping laypeople to counter the rhetoric and the few actual arguments given by the New Atheists Dawkins and Hitchens and the I’m-not-convinced-ist Matt Dillahunty. And how did they do that? As strange as it (apparently) sounds to these young guns, they did it by showing the things these figures say, and pointing out factual and logical mistakes. Sometimes it is that easy.  

If you are not training to answer the questions and objections you are actually going to face, then you are not training for apologetics. You may be sharpening your thinking, or testing yourself, but it is not apologetics that you are doing. A good Christian thinker does not an apologist make.

There’s a more serious problem here, though, and I believe this indicates a heart issue in this person. The final line: 

“Showing the flaws in bottom-tier objections to Christianity borders on being a waste of time.”

Those bottom-tier objections are objections that Christians face. For the overwhelming majority of people (in general, not just believers), the bottom tier is the only tier. The people that you just run into on the street or on college campuses aren’t appealing to Rowe’s fawn as evidence against God; they’re saying things like “innocent people suffering proves there’s no God”. Practically nobody is citing critical scholars objecting to Pauline authorship of Ephesians; they’re saying that the Bible was compiled at Nicea in the 4th century. Practically nobody is appealing to steady-state or oscillating models of the universe to avoid a cosmic beginning; instead they advance the old “science has made God smaller and smaller” and “religion vs. science” tropes. That rattles a lot of people and can cause a lot of consternation if unaddressed. 

So, your friend just challenged you on good people suffering. But don’t worry, the apologists are here to help! And they say…showing the flaws in that objection is a waste of time. 

Your older brother went off to college and heard a professor say that science has removed the need for a God, and now it’s Thanksgiving and he’s an atheist. Answering your brother? A waste of time. 

Your little sister is hearing at school that she shouldn’t be a Christian because it’s sexually oppressive, and that she should “experiment” and “find” herself? Answering her is a waste of time. 

These scenarios are all too common, and we all know that, despite these objections being low-hanging fruit, answering them means everything in the world. Why? Because it means everything to the person you are answering. If someone has not grasped the inherit relational nature of apologetics, they should stop speaking on the subject, because they do not know what they are talking about. One does not just answer an objection; they are also answering the person in an effort to till the ground for the gospel.

Who They Are Forgetting

I (Will Hess) have been in pastoral ministry for about 10 years and unlike Chris, I found apologetics not in my teenage years, but in my early 20’s around the time I had left my extreme fundamentalist upbringing. The reason I left fundamentalism is a story for another time, but some key topics that led me out of it were topics on church history, textual criticism, doctrinal investigations and so on. After leaving fundamentalism and studying these topics thoroughly, I felt pretty confident in my capabilities to teach and minister.

Thus, I began my first year as a youth pastor at a small baptist church. 

That first year opened my eyes to issues much bigger than I had originally thought and I began to realize – I am woefully ill-equipped to handle these questions being volleyed at me. One night after youth group, I decided to do what any other self-respecting scholar would do: I ran to google. In fact, I specifically googled “proof Christianity is true” and I found the works of Frank Turek, Ravi Zacharias, and William Lane Craig – I was hooked. Soon after this I picked up Norman Geisler and Frank Turek’s book I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist which was a game changer for me. I even bought the teacher’s guide and created my own curriculum using its material to teach at my church. At this time I had no idea I had barely scraped the surface of the neverending iceberg that is apologetics.

Essentially:  these apologists were my gateway drug. 

You might also notice that of those three men whom I listened to, only one of them is largely considered a scholar: William Lane Craig. However, when I first discovered this world of apologetics I found him difficult to understand and would often have to listen to his lectures multiple times to understand them. Now, as the weeks have turned into years, I find myself not just understanding Craig, but agreeing and disagreeing with him on a number of points. I find myself disagreeing with Turek at times while cringing at the memory of Zacharias. 

As time passed, I began to realize that some of those popular apologists didn’t always address the topics or passages that I wanted them to address. This spurred me to explore the forest of apologetics and target the trees that I wanted to check out the most. I ended up getting a lot into works on the nature of God (comparing Platonic and Aristotelian views), on the nature of morality (Boyd, Thorsen, Morphy), on the problem of evil (insert Rowe’s fawn here), on Old Testament violence (Copan, Boyd, DeYoung, Webb), on reliability of the gospels (Licona, Habermas, McGrew), and my list of works on why Christ had to die would be far too long for a simple blog post. Truth be told, I don’t even remember the last time I listened to Turek, and the only reason I’ve recently listened to Sean McDowell is because the church I’m working at is promoting one of his talks.

My point is: I’ve learned. I’ve moved on. I’ve outgrown them.

However, I tire of young “would-be-apologists” flippantly putting down popular apologists for casting a wide net and “not going deep enough”. The reality is, their job isn’t to go deep on every topic. Their job is to present the broadest case for Christianity and address the most common objections to Christianity while inviting people to hear the gospel: to be evangelistic. In my past 10 years of ministry I have never encountered someone who asked me to quantify hedonic units in the face of evil and suffering. Usually what I’m having to address is the issue of pluralism, sexuality, the nature of God, the purpose of Christ’s death, the problem of evil, the resurrection of Christ etc. Whether these young apologists want to admit it or not – the popular apologists are doing the heavy lifting. I have no doubt that many of these boisterous critics of popular apologists are actually here because of the very work of the people they are criticizing. These budding apologists who are upset that J Warner Wallace isn’t responding to Kant’s arguments against miracles or Oppy’s thoughts on Ontological Arguments need to have a serious reality check:

Nobody cares. 

That’s right. Let that sink in for a moment. I’ll give you a minute to clean up your spilled coffee and pick your jaw up from the floor. Nobody. Cares. You can complain, shake your fists, scream, and type in all caps you want, but the fact will still remain: nobody cares. Is it because everyone else is just stupid and you’re a bastion of genius trying to prophesy truth to the ignorant masses? No. Just because someone isn’t interested in a topic that only you and maybe 7 others are interested in doesn’t mean they’re all ignorant chimps. Perhaps, they have simply done enough research in areas to answer their gnawing questions and have since moved on to raise their families, start a business, run a law firm, etc. 

“BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GETTIER PROBLEM!?”

I’ll answer the way I did before:

Nobody cares.

Think I’m wrong? The numbers don’t lie. These popular apologists have reached hundreds of thousands of people for the cause of Christ, seen many come to Christ, and have inspired others (like yours truly) to get in the game. Yet, these starting apologists will condescend these people (or their followers) with such an air of superiority the message falls entirely flat. What’s even more ironic is these young apologists claim to deal with “the real issues” (suggesting that those like CS Lewis never dealt with real issues), but have been unable to amass any following themselves. The ones who haven’t managed to build a following have a much smaller audience (and therefore influence) on the conversation as a whole. You wanna know why? 

You guessed it. 

Nobody cares. 

Think about it. It’s hard enough to get most Christians today onboard with popular apologetics being a regular part of their churches or conversations, and you want to bring in even more technical stuff? For what purpose? So that you (and perhaps one other person) can feel validated while everyone else is catching up on their sleep? Perhaps it’s time for you to admit – not everyone is going to care about these niche topics, and that’s okay. What matters is bringing people to Christ. In your conquest to be the best apologist available, don’t forget the “every man”. Don’t forget the mother of 4 who can barely find the time to read her bible – let alone to read technical scholars. Don’t forget the father who works 60 hours a week while serving as an elder at his church, and don’t forget about the high school student whose entire life is mostly consumed with whatever extracurricular that stole her heart. These are your “every man”, these are the masses, and these people are the real reason we do the work that we do – to be a resource for those in need. As soon as we begin to forget the average person, we have lost sight of the mission. 

No One Can Be An Expert at Everything

These popular apologists serve a specific role in the church: to popularize apologetics. To help people overcome the biggest objections to Christianity today and help the masses give themselves permission to believe. They serve as an entryway to the world of apologetics, philosophy, and theology. That’s their role. To expect them to be an expert on textual criticism, theological disputes, epistemology, metaphysics, and history is just wildly unrealistic. Brian (co-host of The Church Split) is an engineer. Not just any engineer, but a computer engineer. It would be not just unrealistic, but downright foolish for me to expect him to also be an expert in chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, and electrical engineering (although with that man’s skillset I don’t think it’d take him long if he wanted to). Sadly, this is what many young budding apologists seem to do with mainstream apologists: they expect them to be a specialist on far too many topics. They can’t be. Not if they are to be writing accessible books, traveling to various speaking venues, coordinating and planning entire ministries across the globe, etc. So perhaps instead of having a spirit of chastisement, one of humility would go further. 

By the way, I am not saying to avoid doing what you’re passionate about. By all means bring your iron to sharpen, but be careful not to cheapen the work of those who have come before. Show decency, humility, and respect. Add to the conversation respectfully, not sully it with putrid arrogance. 

Know Your Place

Seriously. Know your place in the world and how to orient yourself in it. If popular apologists are a mile wide but an inch deep, and your desire is to be a mile deep on a few topics – then own it. Be the expert on the “Historicity of the Gospels” or “Theological Worldview of the Ancient Near East”, but just accept the fact that you will have a much smaller audience – and that’s okay. You can help get someone deeper on a topic you know well, but don’t chide others who can’t do the same. The church is a body and we all have our own gifts. Some gifts are needed more often than others and we ought to be okay with where we fit into the grand equation. I know I can talk circles around most people when it comes to how Christ’s resurrection saves us (atonement), and I know Chris can wax eloquently on how God relates to time, but the reality is – only a few people will find it interesting enough to sit through a lecture on the topic or read a book on it. That’s an unrealistic expectation and would be as equally foolish as expecting Brian to magically become adept at chemical engineering. When we know our place in the church it can help us build the church, not tear it down. It can help us to be an encouragement, not a nuisance. 

Let me give you an example. While I was between ministry jobs I was a teaching elder at my pastor friend’s church (hello Pastor John!). I remember it took me a while to convince the leadership that an apologetics class was necessary, but when they finally gave me the greenlight I went all in. Within the first few months the class had expanded to the point where we had to switch to the auditorium just to make room. People were very interested in the subject matter, but I noticed a pattern. When I kept things on the “popular level” many people would attend, but when I dove into deeper and more technical topics, fewer people would attend. Sometimes I even got an occasional text asking me, “what’s the point of this? We’ve been exploring this part for 3 weeks…just seems to be getting lost in the weeds”. Although I believed these topics were important, I was losing the interest of the “every man” when I explored them. It was at this point I realized what I had to do: communicate at a popular level and then offer to meet privately for those with deeper concerns. It worked out great! I ended up making a great friend (Brandon) who would come over after his college classes on Tuesday nights and hit me with a barrage of questions he had over the week. It was awesome! He was the person who wanted to go deeper while everyone else was content having the “main reasons” to believe and moving on. This helped me solidify further why pop apologists are necessary while having some people be the specialists (who are less well known) can take people further in. 

In the end, we need young apologists to learn to respect the work of these apologists who are carrying the apologetics industrial complex on their shoulders. The show fell on hard times later in its life, but there’s a great villain from an early season in Arrow named Slade Wilson who originally trained the show’s protagonist, Oliver Queen, when they had been in exile together. Long after a falling-out (to put it mildly), in one episode, after laying a beating on Oliver to send a message, Slade says, “Don’t forget who taught you how to fight, kid.”  While neither of us could pull off Manu Bennett’s delivery of the line, we would say to these young apologists: Don’t forget who taught you apologetics, kid.

The Turek’s and Childers’ of the world are the ones doing the heavy lifting and they’re the ones bringing many people into the doors and inviting them to go deeper. They will never be experts in niche topics, and that’s okay. You can fill that role, but don’t be cannibalistic. Don’t undermine their work but rather seek to strengthen it, perhaps re-frame it, and at times correct it when it’s not as precise as it could be. It’s okay to disagree with them (I sure do), but I also respect them and want them to keep doing the work that they’re doing. I want people to walk through the same gates I did and be challenged to become an investigator. Chris became an investigator on how God relates to time, I became an investigator on how God relates to the cross, and perhaps you can be an investigator on the historical background of the New Testament. The world is your oyster after all. However, to castigate others for not investigating the same subjects you think are important is foolish, unrealistic, and brash. 

Let’s build the body up, not tear it down. Remember the every man, know your place, and then thrive in it.